Seminary President Shares Tips on Overcoming Barriers to Seminary Education

The thought of paying thousands of dollars to go through years of seminary education is scary, to say the least. So I was excited to talk to the President of Redemption Seminary, John Schwandt, to share the innovative approach he is taking to help students overcome the biggest challenges to theological education. We also talk about our seminary journeys and some of our best tips for surviving seminary.

TRANSCRIPT (edited for clarity):

BRANDON: I recently went back to seminary for a third time. It’s a long story there, but I had a Master’s in Biblical and Theological Studies degree, and then I eventually went back and finished a Master’s in Divinity. I went to Phoenix Seminary largely thanks to my church being very encouraging and also some scholarship opportunities that the seminary made possible. So, I am very thankful and very blessed for that. But I am, in some ways, a seminary veteran and a freshly graduated student. So, I’m excited to talk to Dr. John Schwandt, the President of Redemption Seminary. This non-traditional seminary is doing some exciting things to make the seminary more accessible and affordable for many people. Before this role, John was the Executive Director of Mobile Education for Faith Life, which makes Logos Bible Software. So, if you’ve ever done any of their online education programs, he had a role in creating those kinds of things. Before coming to Faith Life, he also helped launch New St. Andrew’s College, where he taught the first graduating class and continued to teach Greek, Latin, and the New Testament for 17 years. So, he has decades of experience teaching online and developing distance educational curricula. Recently, I’ve gotten to know John a little bit through some online connections, and we even had a chance to meet in person. And he’s a great guy. As we were talking, we thought it would be fun to talk about our experiences and what people considering going to seminary should know and should think about before taking the plunge. And just so you know, I have no affiliation with Redemption Seminary. I am not receiving any money to talk about it. I just thought John was a good guy, and this is an exciting conversation.

Well, hey, John. Thanks for jumping on with me. 

JOHN: It’s my pleasure. It’s great to do this together. I love to talk with you every chance I get and look forward to it.

BRANDON: Awesome. Well, yeah, you know, God has these incredible ways of allowing our life experiences to shape us into the people we are today. So, I’m always fascinated to hear other people’s stories. How has God used some pivotal moments in your life to shape you? Maybe you could tell us a little about your story and how you got into seminary education. 

JOHN: So I rejected the faith. I grew up in a Christian family but rejected the faith in high school.

Became an atheist and went to college, joined a fraternity, and loved to get into arguments with the campus who said, “Guys, but my mom always was praying for me and would tell me that she was praying for me.” And the worst part about that is I wouldn’t say I liked it. And I realized that was not consistent with my atheism. I was the confirmed atheist of “There is no God, and I hate him.” And that bothered me, and I couldn’t just be neutral.

And so God didn’t let me go. I realized that there was just no rationality. There was no ground for rationality except for a triune creator. And so he changed my heart, brought me back to him. And then, I realized I had a lot of learning to do. Although I grew up in a Christian family, I didn’t know my Bible well. I don’t think I read through the whole thing. After graduating college and working as a landscape architect for a while, I decided I wanted to change my career into a hobby. I decided I was going to be a philosopher. But before entering philosophy, I tried to get my theology squared away. So I went to seminary.

And that was a tall order for me because I didn’t have a seminary background.

The most challenging part was the language courses that they required. Thankfully, they ended before I could fail.

And so that just drove me to it. And I ended up graduating. And in the process, I fell in love with the Bible. And I started teaching original Greek. And I started teaching Latin. And the more I taught just the Bible, the more I fell in love with it and didn’t want to teach philosophy. And so I ended up teaching for about 20 years. Since I was a slow learner, it made me a better teacher. And I was a problem solver. Eventually, I pushed my lens toward the whole seminary project to determine what could improve the seminary experience for somebody like me who didn’t have a natural background. So that’s what drove me to it. That’s how the Lord used it. I would have never imagined this route for me. And now I’ve written books on biblical Greek. And I’m a complete theology nerd.

BRANDON: So you went from barely passing to teaching and writing books. Yeah, that’s pretty wild. And they always say that the best way to learn something is to teach it. So, I guess you just took that to heart. That’s cool.

JOHN: Yeah, that’s exactly what we did. The school was pursuing me. And I was telling them they wanted me to teach languages. I said, “Look, I’m terrible at languages.” And they said, “Well, that’s OK. We can’t pay you much. And so it sounds like a pretty fair deal.” So I said, “Fine. If you want to inflict me on the students, I will learn along with them.” And the students enjoyed that. And it helped me not be afraid to ask any questions. A big part of what I learned in seminary was not to fear questions.

The Lord is God. He is the ultimate standard for truth. And so that confidence that seminary really gave me. And I’m curious. You just graduated from seminary as well, so I’m curious about your experience. How would you answer those questions?

BRANDON: You’re correct that the languages are the hardest with you there, man. Greek and Hebrew, man. That’s brutal. Yeah, I mean, for me, I was blessed to be born into a Christian family. Both my parents became believers when they were in college, really, and through Campus Crusade for Christ back in the day. So, I was the blessed recipient of their faith where I was raised in church. My mom used to joke that I was born on a Sunday, just in time for church. And so, I grew up going to church every single week. You know, there came that point where I was in junior high, where I started questioning my faith and saying, “OK, is this my own faith, or is this my parents’ faith?” And so I struggle with it. I wrestled with it. But man, God just had a grip on me from early on. So, I grew up going to church and loving it. My mom worked at the church for many years as a music director. My dad was an elder at the church for many years. So I was there two, three, four, seven days a week. Just a little church rat kid around around doing everything. But I just loved it, fell in love with it. People started to invite me to volunteer in different things, and I started volunteering and helping. I got started leading worship in junior high and high school, doing that for many years. I thought I was going to be a worship leader, maybe maybe be a Christian rock star, you know, something like that.

But then I just felt God’s tug to go into pastoral ministry. And so that led me to Bible College, which was my first introduction to the academic side of Christianity.

And then later, after I’d been in ministry as a youth pastor for a long time, I went to seminary because I was like, man, my theology, I got to get it straight because I’ve taken some classes, but, you know, I had a lot to learn still. So, I returned and did a master’s in biblical and theological studies. And then, after years of being out of that, thinking, “I’m good, I’ll never go back to school.” They roped me back in to finish up an MDiv. So, I just finished that one up. So yeah, it’s been a journey. But every time I go through the process and just the grinder of seminary, I am thankful to be done. But I’m always glad I went through it because, in that pressure of the academic process, you grow a lot and learn a lot. And, you know, I’m a better pastor for you on the other side. 

JOHN: I’m fascinated by that piece of it because I’ve been working on reducing some of that pressure or stress.

You know, I’ve been so redemptions based on an apprenticeship model where you have mentors, and we try to slow things down and have people give people the space to learn without that pressure cooker. So I do think that the rigor, you need to be pressed to dig deeply and not just set or settle for a superficial answer. And sometimes that can feel a little pressure like that wasn’t enough. I have to dig deeper, and I’m unsure what’s under this stone. But how would you think about the actual serious deadline or high-stakes exam? How do you think that’s a necessary part or helpful part? Or what’s your view on that?

BRANDON: The only helpful part for me is that I mean, you can learn everything you learn in seminary, just reading books or talking to people or listening to podcasts or whatever. If you dig in, you’ve got the self-discipline to do it. For me, it was just that you were under the gun. Now you’ve you’ve committed to doing this. You have to do all these things to get the degree. So whatever they tell you to do, you have to do it. And so kind of forces you to go through it. Does the high pressure of it help? I mean, sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes it’s stressful. Sometimes, you find yourself doing assignments where you’re like, “Why am I even doing this? What does this even matter?” But you’ve got to get the points. So you’ve got to do it anyway. 

So yeah, but I understand what you’re doing at Redemption is breaking the traditional mold slightly. So maybe you can tell us a little about yourself. How long ago did you start redemption seminary, and what makes it different? As we are getting to know each other, and I was talking to you about it, it’s just pretty fascinating. You guys are going a different route.

JOHN: Yeah, well, we started in 2018 when we launched and began building the framework for it. And so that’s pre-COVID. We were going online, trying to make it accessible, just tackling all the issues that keep people from enjoying the benefits of seminary and hopefully opening it to a much more significant portion of the church. Because I think that the more the church is educated and equipped, the greater the kingdom’s advancement will be.

The current model has many obstacles. I think it’s built from a legal model that’s a weed-out rather than a weave-in. And I understand some of that’s good to protect. You want a high-quality product.

But I don’t think many assumptions or conclusions follow from some of those assumptions. So, we started with an apprenticeship model where we wanted to be high-touch instead of online. With COVID, all the schools went online, becoming very correspondence.

You just didn’t interact with the instructor much. They were grading papers. And so we didn’t want that. We looked at it and knew it would be a temptation. And we saw some schools already doing that. We wanted to be different. So we wanted it in apprenticeship. It’s not correspondence. It’s hands-on. So we wanted the learning to take place where a student is where ministry happens everywhere, whether they’re just leading small groups, whether they’re in children’s ministry, whether they’re a pastor, whatever the Lord has called them to. If they could marry their theological study to their activities, they would learn it much better and ask more applicable questions. So that’s why I keep saying apprenticeship, which is in context learning.

BRANDON: So, tell me a little bit about that apprenticeship. What do you mean by that? Is it that you have somebody overseeing you, you interact with the professor, you know? What exactly does that look like? And why did you go in that model? You explained it a little bit, but tell me a little more details.

JOHN: The way we approach that problem or issue was to have recorded lectures and readings like you would expect your recorded lectures from notable scholars. And then we rounded up a bunch of professors with teachers’ hearts. And often, those aren’t the same teachers who are excellent in front of a podium or great orators. So, a true mentor has a doctorate, but they are student-focused. They want to spend time understanding the context of the student and look at how they’re applying what they’re getting out of that study. So, we have a workbook approach for every course. So I guess the general model is you watch some videos and read some readings associated with those, and then you’re asked some questions, and we always provide the rationale for the questions.
Why are we having you do this so that everybody knows there’s a purpose for it? And you answer those questions. We try to keep those applicable. Then, there are seven units for every course. So you meet seven times with a mentor, and they review that work. That’s why it must be one-on-one: you’re applying that theology to your context. And so it doesn’t work well in a class situation at all. That’s where this apprenticeship idea comes in. It’s our version of having someone who is experienced stand alongside somebody who is learning something new, having this new digging in deeper to theology, but applying it newly to their calling and getting some feedback on that. And so they look to make sure that it’s on track with the great books, a lot like piano lessons, where you bring your work in every week, and you’re told it looks great. Or get that song or part back next week, and we’ll keep going. But, you know, we’ll keep you on track that way.

BRANDON: Yeah, my experience in ministry is I was, especially when I first started, I always thought, you know, somebody’s going to mentor me, they’re going to take me under their wing and tell me everything I need to know. And they’re just going to see my potential, which I have, and want to come and shape me. And it never happened. No one came, you know, and then I realized, okay, it’s because people are busy, and they got other things going on. So, if you don’t seek out that apprenticeship, mentorship, or experience with somebody else who knows what they’re doing, you often don’t get that. So it sounds like you’re creating an opportunity for people to say, I need to grow; I can find somebody who will help apprentice me, walk me through these studies, and be there for me. So that’s, that’s, that’s good.

JOHN: Yeah, it’s ironic that in the brick and mortar model, a lot of times that can feel very there’s a lot of distance between you and the instructor, you know, might get some office hours, but there’s not a lot of interaction. And so we’re just 100% online, truly distance, but it’s high touch, there’s a lot of interaction, and you’re applying it in context. So it doesn’t matter the distance between the learning; it’s actually really immediate. So, I’m not sure these terms are even the right terms for what’s going on.

BRANDON: That’s good. So, what do you say are some of the biggest obstacles that a lot of seminary students are facing? And then I know redemption is trying some things to overcome those. So, to the average student, what would you say are the biggest obstacles for somebody who wants to go to seminary or is thinking about going to seminary, but they’re just like, I don’t know if I can even do that, because this seems insurmountable?

JOHN: Yeah, well, I remember when I was thinking about it. And this is what I hear from a lot of people. Two big things come up. One is, is this realistic for my life? Is this going to wreck my life? Am I signing for something that’s just too big? Or even one course? Is it going to, you know, I am already swamped. I feel the Lord’s calling me in lots of areas. How does this fit flexibility or just the ability to the accessibility of the whole program? Does it fit in a real life? So that’s one obstacle. The other part of that would be cost. Does it fit within my budget? So those are the two things we took on right from the beginning. The only way we can address both is changing the model because the traditional brick-and-mortar model pulls people away; they have to uproot their lives. It’s a major, a major risk. So, making it 100% online, you don’t have to try to take all risk out of it basically. People can try one course, audit a course, take it, and choose a non-graded route. And then if they want to get graded later, while they’re working through all the materials we keep, we provide all the materials, we use logos, Bible software, oh, that’s, I people might know me from that, that if you click on a Greek word in logos, that’s my voice in there. 

BRANDON: You’re the one reading it?

JOHN: Yeah, reading it. 

BRANDON: I didn’t know that. I use that all the time because I always have no idea how to pronounce that word. I remember learning it somewhere. 

JOHN: That’s me.

BRANDON: Right on. 

JOHN: Unfortunately, you now connected a face to that voice. 

BRANDON: Yeah, I’m sorry, but I’m going to picture your face now every time I click on one of those, and I’m trying to figure out how to pronounce that word.

JOHN: So yeah, we include all the materials and some training for them. And so it’s it, so it really can be someone who tows in the water without making a huge decision. And then, because we don’t have a campus, we are super lean; everything we do is to make it affordable for students, or about a third of the cost of a normal seminary. So, the whole master’s program is $13,000, but like a nongraded course, it is just over $400. So you can move from $400 for that entire program, which includes all the materials, and you get to keep logos after you’re done.

BRANDON: That’s cool. Yeah, and we failed to mention you were the executive director of mobile education at Faith Life for a long time. Is that is that the correct title? I was looking at your bio there to ensure I got it right. Yeah, which is the company that makes Logos, Bible software for everybody who’s watching who doesn’t know, which I’m a massive fan of; I use it all the time. And so, that influenced your thinking when it comes to redemption. Right? 

JOHN: Yeah, yeah. So we recorded that we brought in super notable scholars who were just the go-to scholars at many different seminaries. And we recorded had them record their courses, or people who didn’t want to leave their their church family and take that course, that type of course. So we produced over 200 courses, and I was there working for them. And that’s why I was brought in to do it. And then I wanted to have that be accredited so people could earn accredited degrees for that. So, I pitched this whole model to lots of different seminaries. Still, it only works, you know, with that high touch piece and at a distance, so it was just too disruptive for some, you know, the established seminaries to consider. So I got permission from them. I’m friends with a lot of seminaries out there. It’s all kingdom work. So they said, so do you mind if we try this and see it takes off? It seems to be taken off; we have more than 150 students, and we’ve been had we’ve had students now since 2020.

So we’re in our third year of graduates now. I’m happy to share the model with any other seminary that wants to take it on as well because the students resonate with them and the mentors that the instructors love it because they’re speaking into people’s lives. And there are a lot of people with theological doctorates out there. We’re going to have a doctorate next year as well. So our graduates can move on and become mentors.

So this whole model provides a lot of work for people instead of just being limited in who can be a professor to like seven to 10 people at a seminary; we need lots because it’s all one-to-one work. Right on.

And so, you know, you mentioned the cost being prohibited for many people. I know that was a big thing for me at seminary, like going back to one of the only reasons I went back to just be upfront is I got an offer for a good scholarship that was like, okay, this is a really good opportunity. But there were so many years where I was like, man, I would love to go back with this, the cost, you know, in ministry, you’re not in it for the money, you’re not, we’re not rolling in cash unless you’re flying a private jet somewhere, but that’s, you know, very few pastors. So lowering the bar of entry for many people who, you know, if they’re smart, you don’t want to get tons of debt going into ministry, or even a lot of people, they’re doing it, you know, they’re, they’re getting an education just because they’re serving in a high capacity in their church and want to learn more, want to be more useful to the kingdom. And so they’re not going to be, you know, making any return on this investment other than investing their dollars into their personal growth. So, lowering that barrier is a big deal. So that’s cool that you’re finding other ways to do that.

We want this to be student funded so that it’s scalable and doesn’t, you know, doesn’t rely on, you know, donors to exist. But, you know, we are pursuing donors to, you know, offer scholarships, especially to nations that, you know, don’t have the same economy that we have; we have minute mentors worldwide, and this works great for a lot of missionaries, we just haven’t built our donor base yet, but we’re not dependent upon that we’re, we’re, we want to make sure that we don’t get ourselves into that problem. And really, so that people can donate to things where there’s true need. And there’s, you know, I think students should be able to, you know, pay their way, but it should be accessible. And so our target was a used car price payment that people could stop or start whenever they needed, and work their way through and make it as long as they want. I think another issue was the stress we started talking about a while ago. And I find it funny, especially with spiritual discipline courses, or sometimes they call it spiritual formation, any seminary course can have the danger to wreck your spiritual life. 

BRANDON: Yeah, that’s for sure. And that’s so ironic. Yeah, that is so ironic. Yeah. So I mean, that’s a good sanity check.

JOHN: You know, are we, is our model actually helping the people involved in the process?

That’s why we went with this workbook approach rather than exams. And we have a capstone project where people work on some projects that they’re doing in their ministry. But we don’t have massively long papers; it’s always answers, and sequential questions in a workbook that help lower that stress as you only have to think about the next step. Yeah. It also helps with, you know, the day another danger would be procrastination, where you have a completely flexible work-at-your-own-pace model, you know, there’s a danger that people will just kind of slow down and not make progress. But, I’ve heard somewhere, and this seems to be true in my life, that procrastination isn’t a metric of laziness. But it’s one of complication. So, we tend to procrastinate on things that are just complicated. I don’t want to open that box because it’s just going to open so many other things. And it’s not because people are lazy so much; it’s just it’s too complicated. So that’s where this workbook approach helps people make consistent progress. And I think it adds some structure to if people can do it for their Bible study time, or like every other Bible study time, just add some structure to it. Yeah. And it seems that you can make some headway.

BRANDON: Yeah, because for me, I found that some of the best students in seminaries are the ones who take that approach to their studies, even though they don’t have to, they’re kind of every day, I’m going to do a little bit towards that. I know I have a paper due in a month, which is a big one. And I won’t wait for the last minute to do it. And so they kind of just slowly sequentially do it. But you got to do it all on your own because you could just sit there and, you know, not that I’ve ever done this before, but write that paper the night before and get it, you know, sees get degrees, you know, it’s good enough, here we go.

But, but really, having that more sequential process really does help. It breaks it down in more bite size, but it also makes it more manageable and helps you learn. Because if you try to dump everything in the last second, I mean, you’re not going to retain as much as when you’re, you know, doing a process every single day, growing and learning

JOHN: In your story, we meet a lot of pastors who kind of went pro out of high school and just started pastoring but never even went to college. I know that you did, but there’s that we have a lot of people that, you know, have come back saying, look, I I’ve been a pastor for 30 years. And, you know, I need some touchstones just to look sideways of what, you know, theologically, you know, am I in the fairway or not, or, you know, where, you know, sometimes I want to push the limits, but where are all those limits? Sure. So we do have some of those. What, you know, you did this in stages. What were some of the benefits that you experienced doing all this work to get a seminary degree?

BRANDON: Yeah, I mean, for me, like I said, I think just some of the forced work to condense the time of what I would typically done on my own, maybe, or even pushing me to do things I wouldn’t do was good. You know, would I have sat down and read entire systematic theologies on my own? Maybe about. It probably would have been more time-consuming. Okay, I need to know this one little topic. So I’ll find that chapter and index it. But forcing you to go through and, like, go through the whole thing of something that’s maybe a little bit more heady, that requires some work to work through it, to stretch your brain a little bit. I mean, that was a big part for me. And yeah, pushing me to do that and to condense it into a time frame where I’m doing a lot of learning fast, I’m taking in a lot of volume, I guess, I should say, of reading and materials, I think was helpful for me, and exposing me to stuff I didn’t know, I didn’t know. I mean, I thought that everything I had, you know, I grew up in church, I read the Bible a bunch of times, I know what I’m talking about. And then I realized I’d never actually done much of the deeper thinking required to get through school. And really, it’s been a massive benefit to me because now I’m a pastor. So I’ve got people coming into the office every day, people calling me on the phone all the time, we get phone calls at the office and whatever. And there are always questions coming up, theological questions that I was not prepared to answer, just coming out even Bible college, I mean, maybe a few, but, but seminary has helped me just learn a lot of these more complex questions and how to grapple with them. And even if I don’t remember precisely like the perfect answer for it, I’ve got like, hey, I’ve heard this, and I can I know where to go, kind of, and I can, I can help get people where they need to go to give them a good, a good, theologically grounded answer, rather than just being like, well, I don’t know, you know, that’s a good question.

So, that’s been a huge help to me, but also just in my own, just the depth of my reaching the depth of my teaching, learning the language is one of the hardest things, but also really opens up some of your understanding to Scripture too, you know, so there’s so many different things like that, that it’s been invaluable for me is in my growth. But yeah, going through the process of it slowly, you know, I don’t know if I’d recommend that to everybody, but that’s the way my situation works out, where now, you know, finally finished up the MDiv. It, you know, I’ve been in ministry for a long time, but I was able to take my experiences to it, which helped. But I’ll tell you what, you know, the process of getting through seminary is one of the hardest things ever. And and doing it while working full-time at a church; thankfully, my church was very gracious with me while I was going through it. But trying to, I got two kids and a wife. And so trying to keep up with schedules and that, I mean, I hit a whole new level of busyness and productivity, things I never knew I could even reach; I could see how people could completely burn out. I’m a pretty driven, self-motivated guy who is really organized. So that’s the only way I was able to survive it. But there were days where I, you know, it was like, I don’t know if I can keep going. I don’t know if I can keep doing this. I don’t know if that’s a positive aspect of seminary, but it’s a reality for sure.

JOHN: I think that’s good. Those are positives. The one thing I heard was that it seemed like your confidence was elevated as well as your humility. And I think that’s a paradox. That’s a perfect test for success in seminary and spiritual growth: there’s equal elevation of confidence and humility.

No, that’s great. Yeah. Because there are a lot of people who come out of seminary or they go to education, they get really puffed up, ego-wise, thinking they have all the answers. But if you’re doing theology, right, you are coming out more humble than ever, realizing how low you are in standing to God and your knowledge. And you have to have that that confidence to be able to ask a true question and say, I don’t know the answer, and be okay with not waiting on the Lord. And I think that’s a big part of what I got from my seminary experience. There’s a lot I don’t know, but I see I’m seeing the faithfulness of the Lord in all of this. And I’m, I can, I know that I will eventually.

BRANDON: There are some things that, just to be honest, there are some things you can learn in seminary. And there are some things that you just can’t learn in seminary. So, just thinking realistically for prospective students or think people thinking that seminary is a silver bullet to make them perfect. What is it that you think people can learn from seminary? And what is it that you just have to go out and do? I mean, we could probably make a huge list. But what would you say is like, seminary is going to give you this, but here’s some things that you will still have to learn on your own or do that.

JOHN: Well, you know, a lot of that will differ from person to person.

And I would say one thing that gets overlooked in traditional seminary programs is the application point. So they’re good at teaching theology, or, you know, facts, information, and structures, theological structures, relationships. But then to get that relationship to how it affects me personally, or me and my relationships, or my church, or what I’m going to do with that. And that’s what you were talking about, you know, that puffing up that that happens.

And so that application of theology, to actual ministry, to real people has been a perpetual problem for, I guess, the monastic view of seminary or its structure, where everyone leaves and goes to a special place. And then they don’t, you know, if but if everyone learns in context, you’re going to start, that’s when you start realizing, knowing what you don’t know because you’re there. And, you know, you have somebody who’s who’s having a faith crisis, asking questions that you never thought about.

There are lots of ways to address that. You know, in a lot of times, the best way to address it isn’t having the right theological presentation of points of soteriology but just being there. And having that, you know, I’d say a foundational piece of theology is God with us. And we were extensions of God’s families to each other.

And so being there with, with someone in that moment, you and you could speak to this a lot better than I could because I haven’t done the frontline work of being a pastor. But when you’re there with someone who’s, you know, has, you know, I’ve been, I’ve had some relatives die, I’ve been with them. But as a pastor, you get much more of that, or in the high points, too.

And so seminary, I, you know, it isn’t the best for those. But if you can link some of what you’re learning to seminary to those points, that’s what we’re trying to do. That’s where I think some real benefit happens.

But it definitely nothing substitutes for walking in the faith, walking with the Lord in fellowship with other Christians. I mean, there’s wisdom with others that that seminary can kind of give you some context, some extra steps in the process. But that, you know, there’s something about I love talking to people with a lot of gray hair, the patients they have, and what they’ve seen—it’s just some of that you just need time for. Yeah.

BRANDON: Yeah, I think one of the things about the seminary model that can really trip people up sometimes is that it’s especially if you have to be on the ground.

If you’ve if you’re moving from across the country to go to a certain seminary or whatever, and a lot of people do that for a good reason, because it’s certain professor they want to study under, there’s a good school they need to get to or whatever, and they don’t have the same resources near them. The danger is there are a lot of people who may go right out of college straight into a seminary. And they’re completely disconnected from churches, they go to the seminary, and if they don’t get plugged into some ministry context, working in their church, serving in a church to a high capacity, you’re getting all this knowledge, and you’re getting puffed up, because you think you know everything. And you’re getting very idealistic. This is how perfect everything should be. And I’ve got a whole system for all of it.

But I see so many students that way you can pinpoint the ones that aren’t actually in the trenches doing high capacity volunteer roles or working at a church somewhere because they’re not getting that hands-on experience. And so yeah, there’s something you can’t teach about that. You can preach a sermon maybe once or twice in a preaching class, and that’s not enough. You have to keep getting reps, and you have to keep getting out there and doing things. You can answer a few theological questions, but it’s not going to teach you how to go into somebody’s home after a loved one has committed suicide. And how do you do that? What do you mean? You just get thrown into the fire in ministry.

And so yeah, there’s the helpful knowledge. But then there’s if you don’t pair that with with the application, you’re going to be in some serious trouble if you’re going to be working in ministry, especially, you know, especially people who are wanting to be full time in ministry, and even if you want to serve the church well. So that’s why I like the idea of the apprenticeship model, where you can say, I can stay in my church context, I can keep working here at this church that I’m currently in, I don’t have to move a country if there’s not a good seminary nearby. Before we run out of time here, I just have one last question for you. And maybe this is a big one, too. But for anyone who’s a prospective seminary student, or perhaps somebody who’s even in the middle seminary, what are your best tips for somebody who’s been in education for a long time in different capacities? Best, best tips, you know, if you you want to go to school, maybe what are your best tips? And then and then, if you’re in school, what are the best tips for getting through the process?

JOHN: Well, a lot of what you were talking about is building that habit, learning a sustainable lifestyle habit.

So if it’s not, then yeah, you have to. You don’t want to continue to press yourself and grind yourself down.

Because you’re not going to get good grades, you’re not going to, you know, it’s not going to you’re not going to grow that much. And, you know, so much of seminary isn’t information, it’s learning the process of how to get to the information and how to approach answers to the questions or even know what questions to ask. That’s probably the biggest one. And that’s probably the one I would put out there because you would get you tend to overlook that. Am I asking the right question?

So if you’re if you if you’re thinking about seminary or thinking about learning seminary, thinking about going to seminary to prepare for that, I mean, once assuming that you found a seminary that you want to go to, the best way to prepare is to I would say start, you know, get it, look at the syllabus, get a course catalog, get the, you know, find the readings, just start working ahead and try to figure out what are the most important questions. If you could boil that course down on into the top three questions that that course wants to answer or that you want to get out of that course, it’s going to be way more meaningful than just kind of being, you know, strung along with with each assignment if it if it’s not very clear, you know, the objectives for it. Then, for students who are in seminary, think about what’s sustainable.

I think, you know, when I went through, I only had so much time. And I, yeah, there were some courses that I just didn’t get out of what I should have just because, you know, I only had so many so much funds, and I could only be away from work for so long. And so, yeah, we often make choices like that. That’s one reason we’re trying to make seminary flexible. But to map out your own program, even a flexible one, I think it’s very good to map out your plan for completing everything. And it, you know, and realize it, that’s your first draft of the plan, because you’re going to have to revise it and recognize the boundaries of human frailty, and not despise that, but know that the Lord’s teaching you with that. And, and that’s usually that’s a good lesson I’ve been working on this year is anytime I’m in a struggle, the first question I need to be asking is, what’s the Lord’s teaching me in this? There’s something here. And, usually, that recenters my attitude, a little bit my disposition, and, yeah, I end up learning something.

BRANDON: That’s some really good advice. For me, like when I first got my syllabus in every class, I’m a very structured person, but I have to say it’s the only way I survived it, like I was saying earlier. So it was I would get out. I’m an Apple guy. So I get out my reminders app, and I get my calendar out, and I would put every single assignment in my reminders app on the due date that it’s due. And then I would even go a step further and say, okay, not just when is the assignment due, but I’m going to schedule when I need to start working that assignment, or when I need to have a, you know when I needed to do certain things to get to that due date. It took hours, but then I was ready and done for the semester. And every time I just sat down like, okay, what should I be working on? I could pull that up. Okay, oh, this is the following things that I need to get doing. That was a massive help for me. So I hear you there; the more you plan it out, the better. Not everybody’s that way; I might be a little extreme in some ways. But I think that’s a huge tip right there.

JOHN: Yeah, that was mentioned in a book about surviving and thriving in seminary. I think they mentioned almost the same tip. So that’s a proven tip. And you did well mapping that out. Yeah, redemption is a little different than that. We don’t have deadlines, except when you decide, I will have seven meetings with a mentor. So, students, I think it’s still good to map, like, you know, decide how long I want to work on this. Do I want to do it for a few weeks or months? And so they have this map of what they’re, you know, pacing for when they will get through the workbook material and sign up for that mentoring. So, regardless of the model, I think that’s an excellent way to budget your time. And that enables you to budget time for your family and yourself. And which is, which is essential.

BRANDON: Yeah, especially if you’re busy in school, if you’re working another job, even if you’re not going to be in full-time ministry, but you’re, you know, you’re just volunteering at the church and want to grow like, yeah, you’ve got to block out a budget that time, like, when am I going to work on this? What works in my schedule? For me, I always had to have like, okay, this is my seminary day, I’m blocking this out, I put in my calendar, anybody asks me to do something, I know I already have a prior commitment, you know, I have something I have to do that time. It’s, you know, something’s already on my calendar. And it’s true, even if it’s just with yourself, but that was always a massive help for me, so yeah, I like how you said you budget your time.

JOHN: One other thing that comes to mind is that celebrating the victories is so easy. There’s a lot of courses that I just forgot about after, you know, decades ago. But the ones that I do remember are ones where I did celebrate, you know, I felt like, wow, the light bulb went on there. And I wrote it many places, it’s, you know, I could put a bumper sticker on that course. This is what I got out of that course. So, if you can get a bumper sticker for every course of this, it might not even be what the course was about. But if there is something pivotal and meaningful to you, that is also, I think, really helpful.

BRANDON: That’s good. Yeah, celebrate those wins, especially every little step, every class you finish, every assignment that’s done. It’s like that’s one more step towards the big goal. But so that’s great.

Well, John, I appreciate your time, man. Thank you for jumping on with me. I’ve had the pleasure of getting to know you a little bit here and am excited to hear what you’re doing at Redemption Seminary and anything else anybody should know or where they can get in touch. How can anybody want to look into Redemption Seminary? What do they need to know?

JOHN: Well, redemption.edu. So yeah, we’re accredited. So we have that edu extension.

And I love the the name. We are nontraditional, redeeming the days, redeeming the time in life. There’s a lot the Lord has for us. If we’re available more than we are, we can always be surprised by what the Lord has for us and how he can enable us and equip us to help others. So redemption.edu. There are plenty of places to contact us. We’re very easy to access, and there are no robots. Very high touch at every every level. So we’d love to hear from anyone.

BRANDON: Awesome. Well, thanks, man. Appreciate it. 

JOHN: Likewise.